BIG BIG TRAIN interview by Pierre Romainville for Prog-résiste magazine
Sept 2024.

Big Big Train in 2024 has become the archetype of the international group: an Englishman, a Scottish woman, a Swede, an American, a Norwegian and an Italian. Not really a neighborhood group, really. A true “we are the world” band, brought together for a European tour already half a year after the release of its last album. At the Boerderij in Holland, they have opted for a two-date residential weekend, where they will play two different setlists. The ideal place to meet up with the group and, more precisely, chat with its “leader” (even if he hates the word) Gregory Spawton.

Pierre Romainville: Your previous albums have always been constructed in the studio, with instrumental and vocal parts often recorded by each musician from their own local home studio and then sent over the internet. Which is quite understandable when you know where everyone lives. But for the latest “The likes of us”, you chose to spend 2 weeks in an Italian studio and record everything there together. With a year of hindsight now, what are the advantages, and perhaps also the disadvantages, of having recorded the last album this way, at the same time in the same place?

Gregory Spawton: The disadvantage? The cost, of course. We are not an easy group to bring together. So finance travel, accommodation, food, etc. of this whole little band, plus the studio costs, this constitutes an exorbitant price for a group like ours. I remind you that we are not Coldplay. On the other hand, and fortunately, artistically, the benefits far outweigh the costs in question. This feeling of living and creating in a community way is actually something I have never experienced. Of course, there were a few bits recorded together in the past but doing the whole album with the whole band present is something very different. Changing things, improving them, developing them while playing, is a completely different experience than making a demo to which everyone contributes their ideas separately. Come on, an example: for this tour, we decided to cover an old song from the Bard album that I haven't played for over 20 years and that all the other current members of the group have probably never heard. In 4 or 5 hours of rehearsal together a few weeks ago, we really revolutionized this piece and improved it in all its aspects. Being together is simply extremely beneficial. In addition, it creates a much deeper team spirit. You actually realize how important these people are to you.

PR: Are you going to do it this way again?

GS: Oh yes, we'll never do it any other way. It's reserved for the next album, but this time it will be in the United States, in April. We're just developing song ideas, there'll be a lot of work to do and I think we'll be able to record about two thirds of it; then we'll have to look elsewhere to finish this album.

PR: With this new approach, the compositions are still not made on site and together, from scratch?

GS: No of course. There is a lot of prep work. We're not a blues band, we can't show up empty-handed and say “let's play, we'll see what comes out of it”. Our music is intended to be relatively sophisticated and it is therefore much more complicated than that. There is a lot of composition work in advance, which actually means a lot of Zoom or Facetime exchanges, a lot of exchanges of musical files. So at the end of this preparatory process, we arrive in the studio relatively prepared but also with a very flexible state of mind. It’s not about playing live together what we sent to each other in the preceding months. We know the songs and the chord progressions but we know that everything will change and evolve with the group. This is how it happened in Trieste last year.

Rikard Sjoblom, multi-instrumentalist, leader of Beardfish, Gungfly and other Swedish projects, comes to join us at the table and sits across from me. With Gregory Spawton and Nick D'Virgilio, he is today one of the three pillars of the group who decided to continue the adventure, or at least try it, after the accidental death of David Longdon in November 2021.

PR: By writing in this, let's say, more communal way, it must be less easy to impose passages that are stranger, more dissonant perhaps, let's say more progressive?

GS: I think Rikard comes at the right time to hear me answer this question. It’s true that, for my part, I have a natural tendency to prefer what is well prepared and that I need gestation time in my creative exercise. While he, Rikard, is a very, very, very natural musician! We had recorded a few backing tracks and it was a privilege to be with him in the studio control room and see him come up with an idea that arrived every two seconds. Let me try this, let me show you this, … he has an incredible ability to be instantly creative. And then it’s a bottomless musical collection, he knows everything, a real bible, a well of musical knowledge. At any time, he can take a brilliant idea off his shelves and instantly adapt it to what we are creating. I repeat it to anyone who will listen, why would I return to a solitary mechanism of composition, when we derive such benefit from the presence of a musician of this caliber? Even when Dave Foster was still playing with us, he also told me that he had never known a musician as brilliantly capable of everything as Rikard. Clare Lindley works in a bit the same way, with her violin. Our roots are different and bring so much richness to BBT's music.

RS : (Rikard joins the conversation, a little red with confusion because his modesty has just been put to the test). I think that our strength in being together also comes from the fact that we are basically very different and that we mutually nourish each other from our own universes.

GS: Exactly! This is what makes us a real group, in any case I refuse to behave like certain solo artists who I will not name and who restrict the inventive capacities of those around them. We're not like that.

PR: A quick question regarding this tour. You've cut a lot of expenses, so I guess you've decided you don't want to waste any more money on tour.

GS: The truth is, we continue to lose some, unfortunately. However, according to our initial forecasts, this should have been the first tour to leave us with a minimum profit but things have become more and more expensive all over the world. Like the Tour Bus, for example. It’s true that by reducing staff on the road, we managed to only use one bus instead of two the previous times. But the cost of the bus has simply increased by 25%. These are things you don't expect. Anyway, let's be positive, we are losing a lot less money than before and we hope to one day reach a point of balance.

PR: In this context, isn't it unbearable to hear and read everywhere that without your brass section and without the 2nd guitarist, Big Big Train is no longer what it was?

GS: Right. People don't seem to understand. There are two things that can be very irritating. The first is in fact “why don’t you play with the 13 members of the group like before?” » ; and the 2nd is “why don’t you play a hundred meters from my front door?” ". Oh yes, there are also those who complain saying “oh well damn, I’m just not free that evening”. Okay, this is all irritating, but let’s move on from that; The most interesting thing for me is the feedback we receive from the vast majority of people present. Because I think that with this line-up, we still had something to prove and the reactions tend to lead me to believe that we have succeeded.

RS: There are definitely a lot of comments on social media saying that the current line-up is the best they've seen. It's very nice. Just yesterday in Germany, the public reaction was, how can I put it, explosive.

PR: Did you gain energy?

GS: We are perhaps a little more “rocky” indeed, and that suits me perfectly because fundamentally we are above all a rock band.

PR: Good. No frustration then, playing without the brass section...

GS: It’s just a shame. We love these people, we love it when they're on stage with us and they love being there too. Of course it's frustrating to see Dave Desmond (the brass section conductor) sitting in the audience. He came to see us play and of course it breaks his heart not to be with us, you know he’s been with us since 2009! But he understands that we simply cannot afford it. We are also very lucky to have found Paul Mitchell who accompanies us on trumpet on this tour and brings that necessary little copper touch.

PR: The list of songs you're playing on this tour is really very focused on the last album, the only one actually that was composed by this line-up. Is this an additional way of creating links between you?

RS: We were very impatient to be able to play this music composed together on stage. Last time we had to concentrate on a lot of old songs, simply because we didn't have enough time to rehearse the live versions of the new songs together. It’s simple, we were unable to play them live. So this time, it’s just fun.

GS: In addition, I was a little worried about playing directly a large quantity of songs from an album that had only just been released and that people probably wouldn't have heard enough. I think this latest album is really very strong. We all think so. And so we also had to make sure to do it justice, even if it meant waiting a little. I am certain today that I was right. I have gone to many concerts where the public discovered songs from a recently released album almost live. The response is often just polite but we are far from the Wow that a powerful piece can provoke when it is already known by the audience. For example, during the last tour, we still played “Oblivion” from the last album. Well, precisely, the public response was much less at the time than what this same piece provokes now!

PR: Let’s talk a little if you wish about the general evolution of the group. I find that your music, your general sound, started to change around 2020, that is to say at a time when David (Longdon) was still alive and therefore still your singer. This perceived change in your music is therefore not linked to its accidental disappearance. What do you think?

GS: This period also corresponds to the Covid pandemic, I think, and the album you are talking about is certainly Common Ground. In fact, we had a sort of pact with David when he joined us in 2009. He helped us get the group off the ground and, for our part, we committed to helping him, or at least letting him producing solo material. What he did with the joint album with Judy Dyble (of Fairport Convention) and his own solo album unfortunately finished after his death. It was essential for him and we gave him the necessary time. As a result, he wrote very little for BBT at this time and I think the album suffered from his lack of input and lack of feedback for the album in general. Then we released “Welcome to the Planet” which was really just a “covid-album”.

PR: A covid-album??

GS: Yes. We were all isolated and our manager was pushing us to stay active and release something. I feel like we really scraped together to release this album, I can hardly forgive myself for that.

RS: You should be more lenient with this album, Greg! We had the great merit of remaining active together and I think there are some very good songs on this album!

PR: Personally, I quite agree with Rikard! But all this doesn't really answer my question about evolution, change in sound in general.

GS: Well, that was also the period of big line-up changes in the band. There was also Carly Bryant’s time with us, which brought in some different ideas

PR: And the departures of Danny Manners and Dave Gregory! Perhaps they had more influence than it seemed?

RS: These two musicians had a particular sound and a very distinctive way of playing. When Dave Gregory plays guitar, we immediately recognize that it’s him, already from the days of XTC. As for Danny Manners, he has a truly enormous musical knowledge and a very particular touch. Coming from different backgrounds, they brought a lot to the table.

GS: They were two huge personalities who made up a big part of our sound. They left us for different reasons; Dave because he never wanted to ride a Tour Bus again and for Danny, I think he was scared by the fact of being so close and so many together in a confined place like a Tour Bus, in the middle of of covid. We kind of forgot about it but it was a scary time. Rachel (Hall, the former violinist) was looking for other things to do in her life, so she took advantage of this obligatory moment of perspective to make decisions. We all loved each other very much but in their minds, I think there was never any question of spending 3 weeks together confined in a Tour Bus. In any case, the time had arrived to rebuild the group. And then David died. With Rikard and Nick (D’Virgilio), we almost started from scratch.

PR: Yes I know the story... when I learned of David's death, I had tears in my eyes..

GS: A lot of people still say that to me on this tour. David had an uncanny ability to form certain forms of connections with people, even without knowing them. But all that being said, I honestly think that our latest album The Likes Of Us is the most interesting, most musically fulfilling thing we've done in many years. It has a musicality that we are very proud of.

PR: Far be it from me to say the opposite. I was just talking about change, evolution. Besides, with all these relatively “old” people who have left, replaced by musicians from the next generation, that must have shaken up a lot of things, you don’t have the same roots, references, the same dynamic no doubt.

RS: Young people are unfortunately not that young anymore!!! (laughs).

GS: Rikard and Alberto are about the same age, I think, around forty. Which is a strength. But their main asset is their encyclopedic knowledge of music in general and rock in particular. They're as comfortable with what came out last week as they are with what's been around since 1965. And they instinctively understand the kind of sonic world in which Big Big Train operates. Take Rikard, for example, who composes constantly. He knows instinctively whether what he has just composed will fit into the world of Beardfish or Big Big Train, or others.

RS: In the evolution that you have been talking to us about earlier, we must also understand that each of us evolves, sometimes seeks to reinvent ourselves. You too, I suppose you no longer write your articles like you did 20 years ago. For us it's the same, regardless of who is in the line-up.

PR: Right! And still on the subject of personal evolution, Greg, you remain the main composer of Big Big Train but I find that on the melodic and harmonic levels, you are getting closer and closer to the way David Longdon composed..

GS: Oh? In what ways?

PR: I mean, maybe less weird stuff, less dissonance, less complex melodies...

GS: Ah, yes, maybe. It reminds me of when I was writing Winchester Diver, we were in 2009, at the start of our collaboration. I had written the chords for the chorus and I was constantly trying to refine them, to make them more complex. So David said to me quite bluntly, “Look Greg, it’s a fuckin’ good chorus, stop messing with it, it’s a fuckin’ good chorus and deliver it just like that!” ". I think I learned a good lesson from it. The heart of progressive rock is the song. All the material that you are going to add around it is important but it just has to bring something to the song. Come on, take one of our songs like “Mead Hall in Winter”, it’s structured with a whole bunch of beautiful, interesting transitions but which are only justified because they lead after a few minutes to a huge chorus, you see. A huge chorus. I think as my writing has solidified and improved over the years, I've stopped trying to be different for the sake of it. I'm a firm believer that music is either good or bad. It's that simple. And I try to make it good. Of course, there is the style but whatever the style, with a good melody and a nice sequence of chords, the music is good.

PR: A great example of complexity is certainly the central break of “Beneath The Masts” on the last album, which is very Spock’s Beard. The public is waiting for this kind of moment.

GS: We love playing this part and we know that prog fans love it. But you see, it’s not filler for the sake of it, it’s precisely the opposite. It was with this part that I started writing the piece. A very dark passage, I find, which culminates in the meaning of the story of the song, which corresponds to a moment when I was going through a difficult family period. My stepfather was dying. Then later when I took a long vacation in Italy, I wrote the rest of the piece, which ultimately leads to the part you're talking about.

PR: Well, I'm launching into a somewhat perilous question. The idea is not to make the dead talk, but you, who knew him so well, I think you must sometimes ask yourself this question: what could David think of what you have become?

GS: I think above all that he would be very happy to know that we continued, that the group did not stop and that we continue to play some of its music. But, for my part, I would say more. And I'm not the only one who feels it, but I often have the impression that he's never far away. Sometimes on stage, it’s as if we get to see him, as if he’s sometimes with us. Obviously I speak for those who knew him, who were already in the band with him.

Rikard fully agrees, saying that David is there all the time. And here we are joined at the table by Kathy Spawton, wife of Greg and Clare Lindley, violinist of the group, Scottish and proud of it.

PR: A question perhaps more intimate. Since you stopped writing about adventures or historical facts, certain pieces speak of your own feelings, like the one we were talking about a little earlier. But often, you express that your past, your youth, you experience as a period of solitude. Your words are strong: “those left behind”, “footnotes in other’s stories”, “shallowenders”, …

GS: Well, it just felt, how can I put it, a bit like, let's say, a little "outsider" when I was at school. You know, I was in a high school that was very focused on rugby. And to be among the “cool” people at school, those who counted, you obviously had to play rugby well. So given my rather skinny stature and my lack of desire for this game, I was obviously not one of the cool kids at school. More like guys left on the sidelines. But in fact, and we can't understand this when we're a teenager, if you talk now to everyone you knew at the time, and even to the "cool kids", if they answer you honestly, everyone will tell you that basically, adolescence is a time of existence based on uncertainty. I am left with a feeling of sadness, which I have retained for many years. The feeling of being an “outsider”. But my texts also speak of the happiness of hatching, even if it takes a while!

PR: Is your success today a form of revenge?

GS: I don't think it's revenge, no! What we're trying to say with some of the lyrics on this album is that if we're lucky enough to live long enough and meet the right people, we may have the opportunity to find the place where we feel good, where we feel at home in terms of the people you are with. I'm going to sound a little simplistic but this band with this line-up, it just feels like my musical home. A question of being in tune with what and those around me. We all agree that we come from very different backgrounds, folk, rock, and others, but this band has become a home and we live there like family. So of course it's not exclusive, Rikard has another house like Beardfish, but nothing prevents a well-rounded citizen from having several homes and that's the case for all of us today. Finding this kind of place where you feel good, understood, fulfilled and surrounded by kindness is not revenge but hope for everyone.

I then ask Kathy Spawton: but then if this group is a big family, is Greg the father or perhaps the grandfather? To which she replies: Certainly the grandfather! Well no! because that would mean that I am the grandmother… so maybe not! (widespread laughter)

PR: Could we say that your entire musical career has been a cathartic experience?

GS: Well, some moments were, I think. The success of Underfall Yard in 2009 was one such moment. When all of a sudden, after years of feeling rejected, you start selling an album by the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds, then Whaa, yes, something is happening in terms of recognition. It's a nice feeling to feel like you're the guy who blossomed later in life, because ultimately it proves that you can make it in the end. Even when everything seems hopeless. When we suddenly lost David, I thought it was all over. But the future remains in our hands. It’s a privilege to be here today with all these guys. To have been able to rebuild the group, perhaps with a sound that has changed as you say but still being Big Big Train, it's a real privilege. It can even seem unreal at times. When we remember all this sadness, this mourning... I tried, despite all this, to become that person who, despite having lost the majority of his energy, tries to find every day a reason to surrender. the taste of life. It is very important after the experience of death, to rediscover the taste for living.

PR: You finally feel understood.

GS: Yes. Well, I would rather say, less misunderstood. No one will ever fully understand how it happens.

PR: You still have a long career left for that.

GS: Yes, hopefully!

PR: Let’s go for a fun question. You have very long hair, longer than you've ever had. Does that mean anything? Is there any meaning?

GS: Ah, I think at 17 I had hair this long! But actually, I don't know why we became a group of long-haired musicians. I was thinking about it again earlier, during the soundcheck when I saw Rikard and Alberto from behind. It’s crazy, we’re a hairy band! And yet Alberto, when I met him with PFM, he had very short hair. But does this mean anything? I don’t know, what do you think, Clare? (the only girl in the group, in her fifties, who also has a long, curly and beautiful messy mane)

Clare Lindley : I always had this long, very “natural” hair and when I happened to say around me that I was going to cut it, everyone dissuaded me, telling me that I would no longer be the same, as if it were something that defined me. But if I look for meaning, I would say that without this messy hair, I would become a much more “normal” person on the outside. And undoubtedly, I have no desire to become someone “normal”.

GS: She's right, it's true that we like this rock'n'roll side. When we arrive at the hotel, we are immediately told “ah you are certainly the group we are waiting for”! (laughs). But on a personal note, I'm going to make a confession to you, I like women to keep their hair very long even as they grow older.

PR: Let's have one more question to finish. Can we one day expect a solo album from Gregory Spawton? And what style would it be?

GS: It's possible but I think it's really not the right time. If the band stopped tomorrow for some reason, I'd probably do something. And it would be more like, acoustic, 12 strings, Anthony Philips, ...I would do something very different, maybe also a kind of soundtrack stuff, that sort of thing. Everyone in BBT is free to do whatever side projects they want, but as far as I'm concerned right now, the band is taking up all my available time. We will see in the future.

In the meantime, our table has been further enriched with new presences, like Alberto and Ms. Bravin, who has just arrived by plane to attend the Dutch weekend of her male singer. Which also confirms to me that he categorically refuse to one day sing in italian language with Big Big Train. In which I obviously express all my disapproval. (lol)

I still have time to share some Trappists with Rikard Sjoblom, who enjoys telling the assembly that one day he was taken for my own son, somewhere else in Holland. To which Gregory Spawton responded with a laugh “sitting between you two and looking at you, well that doesn’t surprise me!”.

Being invited to dinner with Big Big Train is a privilege that cannot be refused. But the real privilege was being able to be there at the Boerderij that weekend, to attend these two unforgettable concerts from every point of view. Music, atmosphere, conviviality, respect. This train continues to grow and is certainly not at the last station.